[hinch]

Ignoring the bias poll that has no "no" option read the thread fully (every post)

Then let me know what you think if you agree with what the emu guys have said or if you agree with me.

Or am I as they appear to think I am talking shit?

http://www.swgemu.com/forums/showthread.php?p=269348

[Lloydyboy]

My personal (Non ANH official) views are that devs shouldn't be running servers (other than a TC with regular wipes).

It gives an unfair advantage over those communities, like EC, who have a clue, but don't have the devs behind them.

Ultimately, and again, this is my personal view, I don't feel on the whole I can trust the EMU team to not proactively disadvantage the community servers. I have a tainted view of course, after following the EMU team since well before the ANH team formed. I just don't believe that they can do it in an unbiased way.

There are some good guys on the EMU team, don't get me wrong, but as a whole...I'm blinkered by the history.

[Zadokk]

Well I can obviously see from those posts that you are angry about them thinking about running a private server. I can see no obligation on their part not to run an 'official' server but I certainly see your point. SWGEmu.com is the first point of call for many would-be emu gamers and if they see "join our server now" in a big, bright banner at the top of the page then all uninformed gamers are gonna click it.

However there is an AWFUL LOT of speculation in that thread. I wanted to reply but unfortunately it was locked so I might as well do it here:

1- "They built the emu they're the best people to run a server." This is pure speculation and thus a faulty syllogism. Anyone who's worked or studied in computer science or IT will know how vast a subject 'computing' is. Just because you can program a game doesn't mean that you can problem-solve a PC, network or the like. Likewise just because you can design websites doesn't mean that you know anything about debugging C++ code. The analogy that "just because you're a mechanic doesn't mean you're going to win the race" is a pretty good one. Programming a game and running a server require two different skill sets.

2- The poll is biased. No doubt about it. A ten year old can see that and unfortunately most of the respondents seemed to have dropped out of school before 4th Grade.

3- Your use of 'fanboi' with an 'i' is apt and righteous

4- A privileged, official server would probably be bad for other communities. Like I said in my first paragraph, if they endorse their own server and plough all the latest updates onto it days, weeks or months in advance of general release then you're going to have people flocking to it. If they see that their server is the best in a big, bold banner then 99% of web traffic is gonna see it, click it and not give it a second thought. Again I admit this is speculation.

My only thought about this is that if a LOT of people do sign up to their server then they're going to have to deal with a) a huge influx of noob players and b) a shitload of traffic which will be costly. As I'm sure you know, Hinch, server bandwidth is expensive and even if half of their currently registered users sign up they're going to be in a lot of trouble. Server Darwinism will apply as much to them (if not more) as any other server and Chimaera (I hope!) will be best placed in order to deal with heavy server loads. If they don't get the donations they need they may need to start putting hard caps on the number of connections to their server and once people start getting restless in the queue they might just start looking around and that means us.

5- Not all of the SWGEmu of fascists. Let's face it, they've had a few personnel changes over the years but the current administration is not so bad. I'm sure there are still a lot of people that you disagree with but I'm sure there are a few people there that you respect and will speak up against anything unethical or damaging to competition.

[ioiny]

and just when I thought swgemu might have changed they are still the witty little kids wanting people to praise them (yet again)

even with ultyma gone you still have egos bigger then the moon on that freaking forum. Obviously you can't win this fight hinch since as you described it "fanbois" will always stick up for thiere heroes.

it's swgemu, what did you expect a painless release?
I have no idea where anh is time line wise, but yet again, I would rather play on a anh core then any other one just because they make it for some kind of community and not for themselves (regardless what swgemu says)

[thamathar]

Let me see if i understand it, they want to run a server for the ppl, and put the new stuff on they server and after some time it will come out to the comunity ? Well, that sucks in my opinion, and that will just put some steps back the trust that SWGEmu team want from the comunity in my opinion

[Starko]

i lewl'd when they claimed you knew shit all.

HINCH IS LEGEND!

[Marc]

the emu guys are so cool i wanna be just like them when i grow up.

[Takumi]

As a complete aside, it'll be incredibly sad if this project doesn't come to fruition because of inane spats.

[Deepsea]

Zad has pretty much made the points I was intending to make, so I'll not elaborate too much (*gasp!* who is posting this, and what you have done with Deepsea?? lol)

It's not entirely unexpected that they might choose to go down the route of hosting a server themselves. I was under the assumption that they probably would.

At the end of the day, they're in a very strong position. They're under no obligation, moral or otherwise, to give equal of preferential treatment to anyone but themselves. They'd argue that having done so much work, hosting the finished article with pride would be a given rather than a point for discussion.

All I would add is that the biggest communities are not always the best. It's not out of the question that they might get carried away with their *ahem* 'donations' system, and pretty soon there'll be some lawyers calling asking them to prove that they're not making a profit from doing it. There comes a point where an amateur, modest endeavour emerges from beneath the radar where it was cruising and takes on a life of its own; this is usually where oodles of cash and the nature of humans to gloat over their achievements kicks in.

Part of me sees this developing along the following lines :

a) SWGEmu release on their own server, with much fanfare and publicity

b) Crowds flock in droves to see the long awaited beast, and therefore the proof that it's not utter crap or vapourware after all

c) People complain of lag, or lack of building space, or *insert population/load based whine here*

d) Those same people start to wonder if their old communities might have re-emerged, and go looking.

e) Old EC folk find their way home to a solid, stable, sensible community server and remain. Their friends follow.

Maybe the above is a little naive, and with rose-tinted glasses, but... it's not out of the question. Maybe one single torch can bring the moths from miles around, before they settle on nearby lights that don't actually burn them?

I still remain distrustful of SWGEmu personally, as it takes a lot more than a few apologies and statements of intent to undo the shitstorm of horrendous PR they quite happily allowed to run for far too long. I do not wish them ill, but I wish them wisdom and humility in the coming months. To pull this off, and also to avoid alienating a large chunk of folk, they're going to need it.

For me, this is a marathon, not a sprint. The communities that prepare well, use common sense in their decision making, and have a good infrastructure behind them (both communication and technical) will be able to outlive the more hyped ones which exist currently more in hope than expectation.

Maybe it'll all pan out for the benefit of everyone, in the long run. I can certainly see the points you've made though, Hinch, for sure.

[Agi'nor]

Well more than anything im peeved at the lack of respect for you mate

Firstly, we DO know better than anyone, and obviously MUCH better than you what it takes to run a server. We've been doing it for over a year, while maintaining support, both in constant fixes, and in-game community support. Don't act like you're looking out for us, we know what it takes. We're adults, and more than qualified to run a server.

this just dragged all the good work seasame had done relations wise for the past few months and shoved it right up my arse im fuming

its a pity its locked i could have had a decent discussion in that thread but im sure they knew it had gone past the point of civil discussion

it is a big issue and if caring for the community is a big question then it should be discussed openly and sensibly im of the opinion they should not run their own server or publicly align themselves with one they make the emu and thats the way it should stay

[Zadokk]

Indeed the problem with that forum is that it is filled with people who are unable to hold a decent discussion with resulting to mud slinging, wild assumptions or fanboing. It's also sad that they seem totally unwilling (or unable) to deal with it. It's one the reasons why I grace only a few threads on their forum and most of the time it's to correct people or actually offer some insight.

It'll come down to quality not quantity in the end. So what if they end up with 50,000 registered players? I'd rather be based on a server with 5,000 quality players who are dedicated players. I'd rather play on a smooth, lag-free, professionally run server than some hand-me-down PC based in someone's shed. If it takes time for people to realise how serious this server is going to be then we just need to be patient.

If SWGEmu aren't going to deliver us a quality emulator then we'll stick to our promise and that is to only provide the best software we can. Just because publicly ANH are quiet doesn't mean that nothing's happening. SWGEmu like the fanfare and that's why they have so many followers. I'll stay a sceptic until the end and the end will only come when I zone into Chimaera and breathe a sigh of relief that a REAL emulator of pre-cu has arrived. And even then our work will just be starting. That is when we - as players - will start our building process.

MONOLITH™

[Starko]

/unequip boots of A New Hope

I have one thing to say.

Joker.

/reequip

[Ta Swavo]

They have always said they were unsure about whether to have an 'official server'. I'm sure I'm not the only one who always knew they would, but wanted to keep players from other communities 'on board' until the eventual decision was announced.

But this poll was by just a random community member so it's not official.
To a large extent the senior staff have not commented. Those who have made their 'comments' are not the decision makers. Only two red-named staff members posted and they stated that whether they had a server or not, all teams would get the same features at the same time... so maybe listening to the forum admins shouldn't bother us too much.

What is important to note is that they do not distinguish between their TC and a live server. If they plan to have only one server then, although it might have new code (JTL, player cities,etc.) before other servers, it will also spend longer with bug crashes (or even server crashes and reverts) as they iron out bugs (that is what a TC is for after all).

On one of your points Hinch you did say that in UO, none of the dev teams runs their own official server. That's not exactly true. RunUO (probably the most popular emulator) has official servers and they are by far the biggest. http://www.runuo.com/freeshards.php

I've always thought the dev teams shouldn't have Live servers. But that's just my opinion.

They'll decide to run an 'official' server just before Christmas and will start it before the end of this year - with a lot of features missing (i.e. there are many they haven't even started on properly yet). It's a foolish risk they take in my opinion. People don't mind a character wipe on a Test Centre but a revert or lost skills/items on a Live server... we all know how much you start to hate the server team when that starts to happen (remember UO Age of Shadows anyone?). The dust will settle more in the first quarter of next year. Let's not assume the position now will be the position then (if we'd done that 6 months ago we'd have been way off).

[maximilius]

Hi Everyone.

I'd love to continue answering any questions you have about SWGEmu's motivations and/or principles, since it is fairly plain to me that some are confused. It seems that the impression is that SWGEmu, if we decide to host a server, will simply sweep in on our black horse and smite every other SWG community. Quite simply - that thought winds us just as much as it does you.

The biggest thing that the SWGEmu team has come to realize is that ours is a game based not on functions and queries, but instead based on a strong community. We know and do not hide the fact we've had PR problems in the past - that's why I'm here. I don't sit in IRC rooms crapping about my weekend; I develop plans, write pieces / policy / announcements, and spend hours upon hours talking with community members and leaders for the whole team. I do this to enhance our ability to connect with and better server our community, which includes EC, TG, eXile, and SWGEmu.
If you think that the impact of any prospective actions have not been considered, you're mistaken.
If you think that the people handling issues such as the thread aforementioned or our relations with the community ad infinitum are not in a position to make discussions, you are again mistaken.

Seaseme, Kyle, Ramsey, PhantomLeader, Ekaika and I have spent hours upon hours discussing scenarios in which we hosted an official server. These talks are far from over. We are not a team exclusively of coders and developers - yes, as a group we do develop, however we don't just develop code. We have really good people working on community development and relations. We're not experts, and we don't have all the answers - but we do have more than a year of experience and I believe we know how to run an effective community in a professional manner and with the highest standards.
We've learnt a lot - from our mistakes and from our successes. I do believe, however, that the SWGEmu team as a whole has the skills and knowledge required to be successful if we ever did decide to run a server. As I said, it wouldn't be the developers and coders running the server from day to day. It would be our dedicated community staff.

If you want, continue to discuss. I'll answer any reasonable questions without prejudice.

[hinch]

the fact you guys are still discussing running your own server is the issue tbh there should be no discussion as the answer is quite simple you should not under any circumstances run a server it'll only go bad for everyone involved including all communities and users.

keep your tc sure but for main tree server nope no way in hell

[maximilius]

Please provide me with some detailed reasoning as to why a development team with a dedicated community staff is unable to run a server, or some reasons why such an action would be unethical. If anything the ability to provide a complete and secure product to a community without prejudice or inexperience should be the first thing considered when thinking about providing such a service. We can do that.
Is inaction not as heinous as negative action?
Isn't us ignoring or denying our ability to better the game play experience for others as inconsiderate as us denying it to anybody?

[tek]

Hi, I'm from the SWGEmu team and had to register to try and clarify something. I am trying to figure out what part of 'Open Source' isn't being understood here.

There is no secret place that work gets done with SWGEmu. If it's on TC it's in the SVN. (<-- That's a period).

"New" features within the scope of the Vanilla Pre-CU & JTL goal will be available to any and all who want it. In fact they will probably be available before it even makes it to the TC, let alone an official public server if they decide to host one. From a code perspective no-one will be at an advantage. Once a 'final' release has been made(Pre-CU & JTL) that ends the obligation of the SWGEmu Dev team to provide any more updates, as the scope of the project has been fulfilled. (Aside exploits, bug fixes, etc)

There is absolutely nothing stopping the individual communities from recruiting developers to start getting familiar with Core3 and laying plans for what features or adjustments to vanilla that are desired.. This is again an advantage of the 'Open Source' belief behind the project.

[hinch]

max i've stated my reasons already and the main one is i don't believe you can be "without prejudice" as you put it.

Whilst the emu team have gone along way to resolving issues of the past I simply don't believe they have completely gone as proven in some of the responses from your very team members in the thread on your forums. (also highlighted here).

I strongly believe that regardless of you claiming to be OS (which you aren't fully OS argue all you like but its true) that you server or servers strongly affiliated with the emu team (such as exile) will have an advantage over others not only with potential feature/bugfixes/update priority but also with standard support and help when issues crop up or when trying to setup things such as clustering.

Not only that but since you control the obvious swgemu domain name and are notiably the primary point of observation for potential members you already have a considerable headstart over the rest.

If you were to actively push other servers not just your own then it would be more acceptible/believeable but at the moment I and others just seeing it as you lot saying "we have all the members fuck everyone else"

@tek your points are valid there's but we do also have members who are on your dev team already people like theanswer but he performs as community independant as it should be he is concerned with the code only and as such will not be involved in our staff in anyway.
There are other issues like myself and a few other professional developers have looked at your svn tree and seen some major flaws/issues in it but that again is for you to resolve not us.


At the end of the day you guys running a server is a big FUCK YOU to all the communities that have been around as long as you guys have and have supported you through all the shitstorm YOU have created in the past.

[ekaika]

Originally Posted by hinch

the fact you guys are still discussing running your own server is the issue tbh there should be no discussion as the answer is quite simple you should not under any circumstances run a server it'll only go bad for everyone involved including all communities and users.

keep your tc sure but for main tree server nope no way in hell

I'm sorry, but I do not find this to be an argument bearing any semblance of credibility.

As with your posts on SWGEmu, your posts imply a vindictive tone, and again, I'm not sure what your purpose is. I respect you supporting your chosen server, but again, you've failed to acknowledge that our overall purpose is to play the game we love again, not to squabble over political foolishness. Believe it or not, but this group of several dozen people working in irc staff is not sitting around discussing ways to ruin the game or sabotage other communites. We're brainstorming, squashing bugs, discussing fundamental pre-cu mechanics, helping testers, and helping one another. And most importantly, we're trying to figure out how to recreate pre-cu as a whole.

Our purpose is to provide the best possible emulation of pre-cu by a dedicated team of nearly 60 people, and then gift that to the public who have been robbed and deprived of the experience we all appreciated. Our hope, beginning with Kyle's Olive Branch forum post, is that we might band together, let our grievances lie in the past, and work together to recreate that which was lost.

Please stop the divisiveness, and recognize that we're all on the same team. We all want the same thing. Let's band together to achieve something historic here.

[hinch]

Originally Posted by ekaika

I'm sorry, but I do not find this to be an argument bearing any semblance of credibility.

your right its not an arguement its a statement of fact. the arguement is within the explainations.

as for us all being on the same team I still don't believe we are and you guys even considering running a server is proving that point exactly. regardless of if you guys accept the fact or not you running your own server will directly and negatively effect all communities around you. who for example would want to play on EC with its 5k members when they can be on the "official" server with 30k members.

The fact you also call it the "official server" is a big slap in the face to us also (and others) because it then means we're "unofficial servers" which by very description makes people think "oh look they're unsupported" be it with updates/bug fixes/features whatever.

if you guys really wanted to run your own server then you'd run it as a different name, it would never be listed as associated with you guys, would never be classed as an official server and on your main swgemu domain you'd have a server listings page where you list ALL serves showing now preference to yours above others, there'd be no advertising your server above others and no telling people outside the team its you.

Basically you run your server as just another server that way the public knows no better, their views will remain untainted and then they would pick the server they liked best instead of just playing on yours because its the dev server.

[maximilius]

There will be a full server listing on the SWGemu Website - including all major SUPPORTED servers. You're all supported. We won't develop your add ons, but we'll support your fixes and exploits. Hell - if you want I'll photoshop you a little badge you can stick on your project saying "OFFICIALLY SUPPORTED" or "OFFICIAL SERVER". The fact of the matter is that we have only up to this point been calling the possible future SWGEmu-run server the "official" one for clarity's sake. I'll call it "Code Name Potential" if it makes you feel any better. Names are names. They're only as useful as they people who have to say them.

[hinch]

your missing the point. whilst you may only have been calling it the official server for claritys sake the fanboi's on your very forums have taken it to heart.

the damage is already done but it seems i may as well be talking to one of your rabidly blind fanboys as your as bad as them for not entertaining the issues your causing and just dismissing them.

[ioiny]

I'm pleased too see that the devs/community members coming here and actually trying to give a good discussion since that was an utter fail in the thread hinch responded in.

First off You devs and csr's have to understand this forums/servers worries about swgemu. We've been here since the start and we seen Alot of well how do I put it, crap from Your devs and community, not just towards us but towards the whole project!

It's a delicate problem all this with servers. But I got to agree with hinch here, you should not run a server. We spent as amny hours as you building up a good forum/community and we had our setbacks as well. I would hate absolutely hate to see this be a dead server because we would be listed as hinch put it "unoffical servers". Even if you told people that this wasn't the deal people would still play on your server as they would think it would be better bugfixes/uptime/expansion and patch wise, and most of all maybe be able to play with a dev.

I hope when the time comes you realise that for us, the server community's out there would suffer a great deal if you indeed chooses to run a server and that is why we are upset (once again).

[ekaika]

Maybe not, but how can you side with someone attacking our community? Calling our members 'rabidly blind fanboys?" That's totally unnecessary, and I'm shocked than a leader of such a large and well-respected community would, at this stage in the game, stoop to such levels.

I hope you understand, that when you make these assertions and claims, you're representing the 5,000+ people in your community. I hope for your sake they all share your point of view.

[maximilius]

Originally Posted by hinch

your missing the point. whilst you may only have been calling it the official server for claritys sake the fanboi's on your very forums have taken it to heart.

the damage is already done but it seems i may as well be talking to one of your rabidly blind fanboys as your as bad as them for not entertaining the issues your causing and just dismissing them.

I'm trying to hold an informed debate, Hinch. Saying that I'm a quote "fanboi" (excuse horrible inappropriate spelling of the term) is not conducive to such an atmosphere. A PR guy is a fan boy to their client? Is a politician a fan boy to their party? Are you, the leader of your large community, a fan boy to it in essence? Of course. The very contentions we each hold are proof of that fact.

I'm a fan of SWGEmu. I'm a supporter of SWGEmu. I'm a representative of SWGEmu. I'm even a fan boy of SWGEmu - if that is what it takes to be able to hold to a principle. Dogmatism isn't a downfall - its a sign of passion, and is something I am willing to embrace.

There is a solid reason why we have no solid plans to run a server yet - mostly because we KNOW that it could affect you guys. WE KNOW it could hurt some people. However in the end we have to weigh up the scales. Is our responsibility to the community as a whole greater than our ability to create a euphoric world. "No decision comes without consequence" (Aristotle). "No action comes without a reaction" (Newton). "Why should we all be stuck in our caves for our entire lives?" (Plato).

I ask you to muse on the position we are in. We are in a position to enhance the experience of everyone in the Emu community for the better. Perhaps we don't have to work towards this goal separately - it is the same goal we seek, yes? It could be possible to do this in tandem, if you are willing to open your mind to the possibilities. Options such as consolidation, co-operation, and the hand in hand pursuit of the wonderful experience we both seek are never closed to us.

So far our plan is to not support other communities to the extent of a full time software company. To be frank, we haven't exactly had anyone try and negotiate for help or any form of support anyway. Instead of talking and negotiation, it seems to be a common occurrence for outside devs to be brought in by prospective servers. This is a wonderful thing if used properly. More devs could help the emulator immensely. However with the current state of disparity, it seems that everyone has the idea that they should be guarding their crown jewels and their devs along with it in clenched fists.
I ask that the developers from all communities come and help us at SWGemu. We are set up, we have the funding, man power and facilities in place to make this really work. All we need is an open mind and open heart.
Your friend and yourself identified issues with our core - FANTASTIC! Help us out! Tell us how to improve! Report the bug! Even fix it and commit new code! Please - it is all we ask - a little co-operation.

PS - good response Ioiny. Thanks for your perspective and clarity.